De ISO 21500-norm is nu te koop in het Nederlands. Samen met een praktijkgids (link), is het voor de lieve duit van bij €180 te koop.
woensdag 5 december 2012
vrijdag 26 oktober 2012
donderdag 25 oktober 2012
Thoughts on ISO 21500 - LinkedIn
This is a discussion on the LinkedIn group ISO 21500
It was started on october 6th 2012.
I heard about ISO 21500 on the PMI BeLux day
today. As a PMP, why should I care about ISO 21500 at all ? It looks
like a copy of the PMBoK to me anyway.
Helmut Berger •
Hello Guy, it´s up to you if you care. ISO 21500 is an informative standard, so you can choose.
Maybe you will have a closer look and sure you will recognize the differences between PMBoK and ISO 21500 especially looking at it´s chapter 3.
Among other PM-concepts you will find the concept of PM-personell competencies according to ipma which means the ipma certification system is in line with ISO 21500.
This is just one example.
Maybe you will have a closer look and sure you will recognize the differences between PMBoK and ISO 21500 especially looking at it´s chapter 3.
Among other PM-concepts you will find the concept of PM-personell competencies according to ipma which means the ipma certification system is in line with ISO 21500.
This is just one example.
Thierry Labriet, PMP & IPMA-B •
Hi!
You can find a pretty detailed comparaison between both standards.
In few words: They are very close since they speak about PM and are process oriented.
Now, the PMBOK is quite a comprehensive framework whereas the ISO standard is not as detailed. ISO introduces a new domain: Stakeholder which is very interesting.
Here is the link with the comparaison:
www.sts.ch/documents/english/Doc_7037E_Comparing_PMBOK_and_ISO_v1-1.pdf
Enjoy!
Thierry.
You can find a pretty detailed comparaison between both standards.
In few words: They are very close since they speak about PM and are process oriented.
Now, the PMBOK is quite a comprehensive framework whereas the ISO standard is not as detailed. ISO introduces a new domain: Stakeholder which is very interesting.
Here is the link with the comparaison:
www.sts.ch/documents/english/Doc_7037E_Comparing_PMBOK_and_ISO_v1-1.pdf
Enjoy!
Thierry.
Pedro Dubié Orienti •
Hi Guy. I could suggest you to go to "SEARCH" and
search in the list of "debates" under word "21500". Your opinion That
Affirmative ISO 21500 is a copy of PMBOK have many debates and you could
enjoy very interesting opinions.
In my opinion this topic is sterile Because it is a wrong way to simplify the Importance of ISO 21500 and is an obstacle to discussion new complex issues.
If we affirm That ISO 21500 and PMBOK are similarly info we have the risk to affirm That nothing new happened and this is are a big mistake. In the other hand, it'sa good opportunity to Recognize the historic contribution PMI and IPMA That (and others) Have Done to our PM culture. In the construction industry we Recognize other importants and very usefull standars (CMAA, CIOB, PRINCE II, Lean Construction, AEEBC Association of European Building Surveyors & Construction Experts, etc).
Now, We have the important advantage to have an ISO Common Language! The world is not built only ... what are the next steps?
In my opinion this topic is sterile Because it is a wrong way to simplify the Importance of ISO 21500 and is an obstacle to discussion new complex issues.
If we affirm That ISO 21500 and PMBOK are similarly info we have the risk to affirm That nothing new happened and this is are a big mistake. In the other hand, it'sa good opportunity to Recognize the historic contribution PMI and IPMA That (and others) Have Done to our PM culture. In the construction industry we Recognize other importants and very usefull standars (CMAA, CIOB, PRINCE II, Lean Construction, AEEBC Association of European Building Surveyors & Construction Experts, etc).
Now, We have the important advantage to have an ISO Common Language! The world is not built only ... what are the next steps?
Thierry Labriet, PMP & IPMA-B •
Hello,
Many other debates have touched this topic indeed.
Now, I'm interested to learn why you consider ISO 21500 is not similar to PMBOK?
I have read both and they present many common processes. From this point of view, they are very close.
Regarding their respective influence, here I agree with you: They both address different interests and are considered by different people.
Thierry.,
Many other debates have touched this topic indeed.
Now, I'm interested to learn why you consider ISO 21500 is not similar to PMBOK?
I have read both and they present many common processes. From this point of view, they are very close.
Regarding their respective influence, here I agree with you: They both address different interests and are considered by different people.
Thierry.,
Pedro Dubié Orienti •
Hi Thierry. I do not like to affirm that ISO
21500 is similar to PMBOK because if we study and compare the origin of a
group of essential concepts of Project Management in different
countries, ages and sectors we can see that the concepts have developed
from differents industries and experiencies with a convergent movement
during the last decades. PMBOK is one, but not the unique result of
interdisciplinary voluntary work worldwide since 1987. Before 1987, many
people knew and practice similar know how.
Santiago Penabella •
The point is not if ISO 21500 is or isn't a copy
of PMBOK, but what's it's objective. In many countries PM is not
considered a discipline or at least PMBOK has no importance at all (even
for companies that theorically develops project management activities).
In my opinion what is good about ISO 21500 is that offers a good
oportunity to spread the PM methodologies, and even better if the
methodology is that one from PMBOK. The trademark ISO is a great support
for this intention, so maybe those who don't care or don't know about
PMBOK/PMI will pay attention to any standar coming from ISO.
ISO 21500 is of course inspired (or copied) in PMBOK, but PMBOK is going to be modified to be aligned with ISO 21500 so it's not only copy but a whole work of joining different methodologies and a way to find a common standard.
ISO 21500 is of course inspired (or copied) in PMBOK, but PMBOK is going to be modified to be aligned with ISO 21500 so it's not only copy but a whole work of joining different methodologies and a way to find a common standard.
Thierry Labriet, PMP & IPMA-B •
Hi,
I fully agree with the great visibility ISO will give to PM worldwide. ISO is a reference for many decision makers who were difficult to convince with PMI references...
I have absolutely no doubt about it, and I agree, it is a major difference here.
Now there are two common points between ISO and PMI.
First, they are global standards: The PMBOK is the ANSI standard (American National Standard Institute) and many contributors work hard to enhance this standard. ISO, at a greater scale (worldwide vs American), is working somehow the same way, except that members are international.
Last, the processes described in both standards are very close and will become even closer with the new version of the PMBOK. Somehow, it is normal that ANSI and ISO standards have commonalities when dealing with the same subject.
Thierry.
I fully agree with the great visibility ISO will give to PM worldwide. ISO is a reference for many decision makers who were difficult to convince with PMI references...
I have absolutely no doubt about it, and I agree, it is a major difference here.
Now there are two common points between ISO and PMI.
First, they are global standards: The PMBOK is the ANSI standard (American National Standard Institute) and many contributors work hard to enhance this standard. ISO, at a greater scale (worldwide vs American), is working somehow the same way, except that members are international.
Last, the processes described in both standards are very close and will become even closer with the new version of the PMBOK. Somehow, it is normal that ANSI and ISO standards have commonalities when dealing with the same subject.
Thierry.
Max Wideman •
The big difference between the Guide to the PMBOK
and the ISO21500 Guidance on project management is that the "Guide" is
excessively complex for most projects but relatively cheap whereas the
ISO21500 is quite simplistic but excessively expensive. Since both are
treating the same subject, it should not be surprising that there are
commonalities to both.
Guy Vertommen •
hi all,
So, as a project manager, what is then the next step to do ? I studied the
PMBoK and reached a PMP certification not only to become a better project
manager, but also to be recognised as one. And with that statement I mean
that identifying yourself as PMP on your resume gives yourself a sort of
quality label, a label that is often requested when looking for
opportunities.
What's with ISO then ? Should PMP's look for an ISO label (appreciation,
certification, ...) as well ? Is that even the goal ?
Will, in the long run, the ISO 21500 stamp in the upper right corner of our
resume replace the list of PMP, Prince2, IPMA certifications ?
regards
Guy
So, as a project manager, what is then the next step to do ? I studied the
PMBoK and reached a PMP certification not only to become a better project
manager, but also to be recognised as one. And with that statement I mean
that identifying yourself as PMP on your resume gives yourself a sort of
quality label, a label that is often requested when looking for
opportunities.
What's with ISO then ? Should PMP's look for an ISO label (appreciation,
certification, ...) as well ? Is that even the goal ?
Will, in the long run, the ISO 21500 stamp in the upper right corner of our
resume replace the list of PMP, Prince2, IPMA certifications ?
regards
Guy
Guy Vertommen •
Well, I think we should celebrate that there finally is an ISO standard for
project managerment.
And the fact that it is very very similar to our beloved PMBoK makes it all
the easier for PMP's to study it :-)
regards
Guy
project managerment.
And the fact that it is very very similar to our beloved PMBoK makes it all
the easier for PMP's to study it :-)
regards
Guy
Santiago Penabella •
In my case Guy, I obtained the PMP certification
with the same objective as you did, improve my skills as PM and also to
be recognised as such, but unfortunatly in my country and in my
industry it's not a recognition. Anyway, ISO will not be used to certify
professionals but projects.
What is good for us, the professionals, is that ISO will help those organizations that still don't know clearly what Project Management is and how they can improve their results using PM methodologies.
And of course for those professionals who know and use the PMBOK standards is great that the ISO 21500 is aligned with it, we don't need to learn something new!!!
What is good for us, the professionals, is that ISO will help those organizations that still don't know clearly what Project Management is and how they can improve their results using PM methodologies.
And of course for those professionals who know and use the PMBOK standards is great that the ISO 21500 is aligned with it, we don't need to learn something new!!!
Thierry Labriet, PMP & IPMA-B •
Hi,
ISO will never appear on your resume because it is oriented towards organization.
What may happen is that ISO oriented organizations will appreciate someone with a PMP certification because 1) you have a structured approach of PM, 2) you know a process oriented framework which is the ANSI standard and 3) this ANSI standard is very close to the ISO standard.
That's why, I think PMI certifications will continue to provide value to individuals like us.
It might be more difficult for Prince2 because it is a bit less close to the ISO processes and, in Switzerland, our federal adopted method (Hermès) might also be in this situation.
I believe that IPMA, because it is competency oriented, will continue to have an increasing recognition.
What do you think?
ISO will never appear on your resume because it is oriented towards organization.
What may happen is that ISO oriented organizations will appreciate someone with a PMP certification because 1) you have a structured approach of PM, 2) you know a process oriented framework which is the ANSI standard and 3) this ANSI standard is very close to the ISO standard.
That's why, I think PMI certifications will continue to provide value to individuals like us.
It might be more difficult for Prince2 because it is a bit less close to the ISO processes and, in Switzerland, our federal adopted method (Hermès) might also be in this situation.
I believe that IPMA, because it is competency oriented, will continue to have an increasing recognition.
What do you think?
Guy Vertommen •
I don't know IPMA very well .. I just became
member of the new Belgian chapter and I haven't really studied their
certification system yet.
Manuel Romoli •
The ISO21500 standard is a company-oriented
methodology and will give companies a new framework to wich certify
their projects against: sponsors/CEO/senior management they do not know
the PMI label but they certainly know the ISO label and hope is to
certify their organizations like the ISO 9001 standard. PMPs will act as
consultants.
Angus Macleod MAPM IPMA •
In my humble view the difference has ENORMOUS
contractual nessecity - if you are a PMC, PMT or ans EPC and your
contarct with a Major Client DEPENDS on you being ISO 21500 certified
then it will be NESSECARY as it is an overarching INTERNATIONAL
STANDARD - as opposed to much more detaled BoK's which tend to be
"national" rather than "international" and I would say PMBoKs are not
recognised in International Contract Law (?) - a they (PMBoK''s) are
country-specific PMI (USA), APM (UK) AIPM (AUS), IPMA (International) -
having no specific weight in contract law.
I would opine that ISO' s are just what it says - if you are not (say) ISO 9100 / 9002 compliant then you get eliminated from ITTs (Invitations to Tender) - the same will eventually be true of ISO 21500 as it permeates the International PM Community.
In the Oil & Gas industry (ie) Major Oil Companies classically award PMT's / PMC's for greenfield capital projects with CAPEX ranging from $1BN - > 45BN USD with PMC contracs being worth 5-9% (maybe more) of these Capex values - they would definately not award a PMC with no ISO compliance for that order of magnitude contract - the cost risk in terms of sub-optimal management would be too great.
Just a few thoughts
I would opine that ISO' s are just what it says - if you are not (say) ISO 9100 / 9002 compliant then you get eliminated from ITTs (Invitations to Tender) - the same will eventually be true of ISO 21500 as it permeates the International PM Community.
In the Oil & Gas industry (ie) Major Oil Companies classically award PMT's / PMC's for greenfield capital projects with CAPEX ranging from $1BN - > 45BN USD with PMC contracs being worth 5-9% (maybe more) of these Capex values - they would definately not award a PMC with no ISO compliance for that order of magnitude contract - the cost risk in terms of sub-optimal management would be too great.
Just a few thoughts
Pat Weaver •
Thoughts on the last 2 comments:
1. ISO21500 - IS NOT a methodology and has no resemblance to a methodology, it is a standard. Organisations can build a methodology based on a standard but this involves a lot of work. To understand the elementary differences between standards and methodologies see: http://mosaicprojects.wordpress.com/2009/04/11/pmbok-v-methodology/ and for more on developing a methodology see: http://www.mosaicprojects.com.au/WhitePapers/WP1045_Methodologies.pdf
1. ISO21500 – was not designed to facilitate certification or accreditation although I’m sure someone will try for commercial reasons the process definition is very high level and certifying that someone has for example ‘developed a schedule’ is next to useless. A valid certification should look at the quality and use of the schedule not the simple fact a piece of paper called a schedule exists which is all ISO21500 will support. There are valid assessment models available like P3M3 and OPM3 – organisations asking for certification under ISO 21500 are simply showing there ignorance of effective project management. For more on these models see: http://www.mosaicprojects.com.au/PM-Knowledge_Index.html#OrgGov5
ISO 21500 has been designed to provide an overarching framework to facilitate the alignment of national standards and terminology world-wide. It achieves this objective and should allow a standardisation of the practice of project management over time.
1. ISO21500 - IS NOT a methodology and has no resemblance to a methodology, it is a standard. Organisations can build a methodology based on a standard but this involves a lot of work. To understand the elementary differences between standards and methodologies see: http://mosaicprojects.wordpress.com/2009/04/11/pmbok-v-methodology/ and for more on developing a methodology see: http://www.mosaicprojects.com.au/WhitePapers/WP1045_Methodologies.pdf
1. ISO21500 – was not designed to facilitate certification or accreditation although I’m sure someone will try for commercial reasons the process definition is very high level and certifying that someone has for example ‘developed a schedule’ is next to useless. A valid certification should look at the quality and use of the schedule not the simple fact a piece of paper called a schedule exists which is all ISO21500 will support. There are valid assessment models available like P3M3 and OPM3 – organisations asking for certification under ISO 21500 are simply showing there ignorance of effective project management. For more on these models see: http://www.mosaicprojects.com.au/PM-Knowledge_Index.html#OrgGov5
ISO 21500 has been designed to provide an overarching framework to facilitate the alignment of national standards and terminology world-wide. It achieves this objective and should allow a standardisation of the practice of project management over time.
Thierry Labriet, PMP & IPMA-B •
Hi,
In addition, I would react to Angus comment regarding IPMA. IPMA is not an international methodology since it is not a methodology at all.
It is a competency based appreciation (and certification) framework, and this is actually what makes it appealing and complementary to a specific methodology or process oriented framework.
Thierry.
In addition, I would react to Angus comment regarding IPMA. IPMA is not an international methodology since it is not a methodology at all.
It is a competency based appreciation (and certification) framework, and this is actually what makes it appealing and complementary to a specific methodology or process oriented framework.
Thierry.
woensdag 24 oktober 2012
dinsdag 23 oktober 2012
woensdag 17 oktober 2012
ISO: New ISO standard on project management
ISO writes: "With pressure on business for faster and cheaper results, a new ISO standard for
good practice in project management will increase efficiency and maximize the effect of investments.".
Article to be found here.
Article to be found here.
donderdag 13 september 2012
ISO 21500 Project Management certification
I found this interesting discussion in the LinkedIn-group ISO 2150.
For those who can't access this group, this is the text.
For those who can't access this group, this is the text.
Ana-Maria Paraschiv, PMP • Dear group members,
It was recently clarified to me that ISO 21500 was developed as guidance only, and is not intended to be used for certification. There is nothing in 21500 that you can certify against.
This is unlike any other ISO I heard of and I am quite curious on the reasons for this? Why was the ISO 21500 created only for guidance and not also for certification/audit?
Looking forward for more details on this, if anyone has them :)
Thanks,
Ana
It was recently clarified to me that ISO 21500 was developed as guidance only, and is not intended to be used for certification. There is nothing in 21500 that you can certify against.
This is unlike any other ISO I heard of and I am quite curious on the reasons for this? Why was the ISO 21500 created only for guidance and not also for certification/audit?
Looking forward for more details on this, if anyone has them :)
Thanks,
Ana
Mario Coquillat de Travesedo, PMP • Ana, final edition of ISO 21500 has deleted the sentence "This
International Standard is not intended for certification or regulatory
purposes" so now is open to market requirements.
This is ISO´s spirit, see the evolution of the guide and not predefine it.
However, current ISO 21500 has not the structure to be certified (requirements are not included) so probably next version (within 5 years) if market requires it will be oriented to certification.
This is ISO´s spirit, see the evolution of the guide and not predefine it.
However, current ISO 21500 has not the structure to be certified (requirements are not included) so probably next version (within 5 years) if market requires it will be oriented to certification.
Ana-Maria Paraschiv, PMP
• Mario, Many, many thanks for the information. What I understand from you is
that if at an organization level, or country level, the decision will be to use
ISO 21500 as a standard of practice in project management, then that is ok, but
a formal certification, as in being kept with and audit process is not yet
possible, but might be in 5 years time. Did I get the message right?
Many thanks,
Ana
Many thanks,
Ana
Mario Coquillat de Travesedo, PMP • That´s correct. If you want to work in implementation I invite you to
visit our blog and the PMI´s volunteers project we´re working to help companies
in this challenge.
http://iso21500analysis.blogspot.com.es/
About certification, you have to wait at least 5 years if you want to be certified by ISO or your national body (in Spain is Aenor) but if you want you can be recognized as a company which fulfill with ISO 21500 using a third party company (e.g. a consultant firm)
http://iso21500analysis.blogspot.com.es/
About certification, you have to wait at least 5 years if you want to be certified by ISO or your national body (in Spain is Aenor) but if you want you can be recognized as a company which fulfill with ISO 21500 using a third party company (e.g. a consultant firm)
Lars Wendestam
• There are quite many ISO standards not used for certification but still
valuable to use. Som you are probalby using without knowing you do, such as the
ISO standard for country codes and currency codes. Regarding ISO 21500, my view
is to use it as a backbone standards to the quality standard ISO 9001. If you
have a larger part of your organisations work performed in projects, it is
relevant to have that described in your quality system. ISO 21500 helps you to
get the right structure in your business managmeent system (BMS).
zondag 9 september 2012
Prijs ISO 21500
De nieuwe ISO 21500 standaard kost 140 Zwitserse Franken, oftewel 116 Euro, 148 dollar.
Zowel als PDF downloadbaar als in papier vorm te krijgen.
Te koop bij de ISO zelve, hier.
Zowel als PDF downloadbaar als in papier vorm te krijgen.
Te koop bij de ISO zelve, hier.
dinsdag 4 september 2012
ISO 21500 published!
maandag 3 september 2012
zondag 19 augustus 2012
Project charter incluyendo el Comité de América Latina.
A presentation about ISO 21500 on SlideShare: here.
Description: "Ultima versión del project charter incluyendo el Comité de América Latina.".
Description: "Ultima versión del project charter incluyendo el Comité de América Latina.".
woensdag 15 augustus 2012
zondag 12 augustus 2012
ISO 21500 Guidance on Project Management nimmt letzte Hürde
ISO 21500 Guidance on Project Management nimmt letzte Hürde: here.
Source: GPM-blog.de
Author: Reinhard Wagner
Language: German
Source: GPM-blog.de
Author: Reinhard Wagner
Language: German
dinsdag 7 augustus 2012
zaterdag 4 augustus 2012
Current stage since August 3rd 2012: 50.60
The current stage is 50.60. "Close of voting. Proof returned by secretariat".
The next stage are:
50.92 FDIS referred back to TC or SC
50.98 Project deleted
50.99 FDIS approved for publication
60.00 International Standard under publication
60.60 International Standard published
Target publication date: 2012-08-31.
We're very close now...
The next stage are:
50.92 FDIS referred back to TC or SC
50.98 Project deleted
50.99 FDIS approved for publication
60.00 International Standard under publication
60.60 International Standard published
Target publication date: 2012-08-31.
We're very close now...
vrijdag 1 juni 2012
Twitter @grupo_iso21500 Spain - Español
Grupo de análisis del PMI Spain Chapter para el estudio de la ISO 21500
woensdag 9 mei 2012
Análisis ISO 21500 - Spain - Español
La
nueva Norma ISO 21500 “Guidance on project management”
Artículo del Dr. Ángel Isidro Mena. Publicado inicialmente en el Boletín de Marzo de 2012 de PMI Madrid Spain Charter.
http://grupoiso21500.blogspot.com/
Artículo del Dr. Ángel Isidro Mena. Publicado inicialmente en el Boletín de Marzo de 2012 de PMI Madrid Spain Charter.
http://grupoiso21500.blogspot.com/
maandag 30 april 2012
The current stage in the development of ISO 21500 is 40.99: Full report circulated: DIS approved for registration as FDIS.
Current stage date 2012-03-14 .
Link: here.
Target publication date: 2012-08-31
Current stage date 2012-03-14 .
Link: here.
Target publication date: 2012-08-31
Project management en ISO 21500
Project management en ISO 21500 volgens Ron Vinken en Sander van der Blij.
De presentatie staat hier.
De presentatie staat hier.
zaterdag 3 maart 2012
Impact van ISO 21500 op (PRINCE2) projecten.
BPUG kennissessie, Impact van ISO 21500 op (PRINCE2) projecten. Door Robbert van Alen.
De presentatie is hier te vinden.
De presentatie is hier te vinden.
zondag 12 februari 2012
vrijdag 10 februari 2012
ISO 21500 in Spanish / Espagnol / español
A post in the ISO 21500 LinkedIn groep from Pedro Dubié Orienti.
(...) Paris also adopted the translation the ISO 21500 into Spanish. For Spanish this guide is very good news. The project management applied to the construction sector has a recent and intense history as a service. It is a very good trend for the regulation of the profession at national level. It is also very good for the Latin American community. For the construction world in Latin America this rule will be a solid base to improve later. (...)
(...) Paris also adopted the translation the ISO 21500 into Spanish. For Spanish this guide is very good news. The project management applied to the construction sector has a recent and intense history as a service. It is a very good trend for the regulation of the profession at national level. It is also very good for the Latin American community. For the construction world in Latin America this rule will be a solid base to improve later. (...)
vrijdag 3 februari 2012
ISO 21500, laatste nieuws.
Video over de laatste ontwikkelingen in ISO 21500. Met Gilbert Silvius Robbert van Alen.
zaterdag 14 januari 2012
ISO 21500 current stage and publication date.
The current stage in the development of ISO 21500 is 40.60: Close of voting. Date 2011-09-06. Link: here.
Target publication date: 2012-08-31
Target publication date: 2012-08-31
vrijdag 13 januari 2012
ISO 21500 and PRINCE2
Another interesting discussion on LinkedIn. If you can, join the ISO 21500 group.
If you can't, this is the text:
Stephen Goodwin • Does anyone know how PRINCE2 has been utilised in this new standard? The discussion draft seems to lack maturity in application across the project organisation.
If you can't, this is the text:
Stephen Goodwin • Does anyone know how PRINCE2 has been utilised in this new standard? The discussion draft seems to lack maturity in application across the project organisation.
It seems that this draft standard falls short of the lessons learned and already incorporated into PRINCE2 - the outline methodology for 21500 seems very open and still doesn't appear to address the whole of the project organisation - it seems to maintain the Druid/Guru approach to PMs and for my money misses the mark somewhat... Projects aren't successful because of the PM; it's a whole of team thing from the doers down to senior management. I don't believe I've yet seen this expressed in the discussion draft...
donderdag 5 januari 2012
"Have the ISO 21500 standard focused on the right things?"
An interesting discussion on LinkIn about ISO 21500. You can find it here.
If you don't have access to this group, this is the text.
If you don't have access to this group, this is the text.
Lars Wendestam
Have the ISO 21500 standard focused on the right things?
When studying the content in the new standard, it seems like the work with the standard spent over 4 years focused on aligning country standards lika ANSI PMBOK, and UK BS 6079. But where is all future concepts? I am missing things like Agile Project Management, Project as a Practice (PaaP) and other future related project management methodologies. Projects are no longer plannable as the where during the 20th century. Shouldn't a new worldwide standard for project management reflect todays and future ways of managing projects?
Daniel Echeverria-Jadraque • Totally agree with you. I am Well aware of agile methodologies but not of PaaP. Could you recommend me something to read about? By the way, could you send me the present iso 21500 standard or tell me where can I download it? Thank you for all!
Pat Weaver • The purpose of a standard is not to define the methodology you chose to use. Methodologies come and go; Agile is the current fad that makes lots of consultants lots of money and I suspect within 5 to 10 years, the solid element of the methodology will simply merge into general project management (and there are a lot of really good concepts) and another fad will have emerged with another bunch of consultants. This has been going on for as long as I have been involved in project management and is unlikely to change.
The purpose of the ISO standard is to define WHAT has to be done if you are doing project management (as opposed to some other form of management). HOW these objectives are achieved is the province of methodologies ranging from PRINCE2, through the different flavours of Agile and onto whatever new innovations emerge in a year or two.
Agile is a useful but limited methodology – great for some forms of software and other ‘soft projects’ but of limited value if you are trying to build a nuclear power station. ISO 21500 should apply equally to both.
The purpose of the ISO standard is to define WHAT has to be done if you are doing project management (as opposed to some other form of management). HOW these objectives are achieved is the province of methodologies ranging from PRINCE2, through the different flavours of Agile and onto whatever new innovations emerge in a year or two.
Agile is a useful but limited methodology – great for some forms of software and other ‘soft projects’ but of limited value if you are trying to build a nuclear power station. ISO 21500 should apply equally to both.
Daniel Echeverria-Jadraque • Scrum started in the early 80s, years before the Pmbok Guide. Therefore I wouldn't dismiss as a fad. Each problem requires a certain solution. When there is a uncertainty
Daniel Echeverria-Jadraque • ...In the technolgy or in the requirements, the iso 21500 as it is not will be of no valué and I there will be more and more there Projects. in any caso 21500 will be useful for a lot of Project and I welcome it.
Karl Best, CStd, CAPM • @Lars, 21500 was never intended to be an all-encompassing project management standard, nor will it be the only standard on the topic. It is only the first of probably several that will be produced by ISO over the coming years. There is an opportunity for you or any other interested person to set the agenda and suggest additional topics for standardization, but you have to go through the normal channels. Specifically, contact your national body and ask to participate in your national committee for ISO/TC258.
Theofanis Giotis | PMP®, BA, MSc, Ph.D. C. • I agree with Karl's comment. ISO21500 is for “most of the projects most of the time”. It cannot cover everything.
Also, all standards have value if adopted by industry and government. Can you recall the comments for ISO 9000 twenty years ago? Everyone was noting that ISO 9000 was useless in the 90's... Today all governments worldwide REQUIRE ISO 9000 as a must have criterion for any public tender!!!
My personal opinion is that ISO 21500 will follow the path of ISO9000 in the coming years.
Ravikumar Kalose N, PMP • If anyone has any idea on what is new in ISO 21500 compared to existing frameworks and PM principles.
Have things like Agile principles, PaaP, or any new dimension to future Project management thinking, etc.. has been covered? I would be interested to know these...
Thanks...
Also, all standards have value if adopted by industry and government. Can you recall the comments for ISO 9000 twenty years ago? Everyone was noting that ISO 9000 was useless in the 90's... Today all governments worldwide REQUIRE ISO 9000 as a must have criterion for any public tender!!!
My personal opinion is that ISO 21500 will follow the path of ISO9000 in the coming years.
Ravikumar Kalose N, PMP • If anyone has any idea on what is new in ISO 21500 compared to existing frameworks and PM principles.
Have things like Agile principles, PaaP, or any new dimension to future Project management thinking, etc.. has been covered? I would be interested to know these...
Thanks...
Theofanis Giotis | PMP®, BA, MSc, Ph.D. C. • ISO 21500 is based basically on Chapter 3 of PMBOK Guide, 3rd Edition. The main difference is that it has 10 Knowledge Areas ( in ISO 21500 are called Subject Groups). The 10th knowledge area is 'Stakeholders Management'
You can buy the standard here http://www.iso.org/iso/catalogue_detail?csnumber=50003
You can buy the standard here http://www.iso.org/iso/catalogue_detail?csnumber=50003
Ravikumar Kalose N, PMP • Any idea on what it means to consulting orgs, what opportunities exists? certified 21500 trainer, certified 21500 organization, certified 21500 auditor, coach..etc.
Brian Jones M Sc, M App Sc, MBA, Dip HE • Just a thought that may be relevant. During my recent research effort at JM Uni in Liverpool , I looked at PM training including about 27 Universities in the USA/Ireland/UK and Oz offering M Sc in PM. This in part was because some mining corporations I approached had expressed concerns about the training on offer and with regards to the management of mega projects ($1billion plus) now in planning. They fear that the project manager expertise will not be available and they are in competition with the oil & gas and hydro sectors for talent. It appears there is no standard PM training curriculum, so Universities are free to offer whatever. I advocate including contract law and only the Oz Unis of the ones I reviewed offered any training in law.
Lars Wendestam • Thanks for all comments so far. I was a little provocative when asking this question about the new standard and do think it's relevant to discuss the relevance in all new standards. Just because it's a ISO standard, it doesn't automatically became something you must follow. I could give several examples of where we have unnecessary standards. To give some example there are currently four separate ISO standards for counting function points (estimation methods) beacuse the national interests couldn´t be aligned. If your read ISO 31000 (risk management) in paralell with ISO 27005 (Info security risk managment) you find them overlapping, As I understood the information I got from the work with fifth edition of PMBoK, they will keep it separated from ISO 21500. The PMP exams will be kept as is. So if you have invested in PMI,s frameworks, why change? I am familar with the new TC 258 workgroup starting to look at Programme Management. I am afraid this work will be almost the same ending up in a fight between national interests in defending existing standards instead of looking out of the window. Will it it be base on PMI's programme management standard, OGC's MSP or something else? Probably PMI here also, beacuse it better aligns into ISO 21500.
Regarding the inititial question about the project management standard, I do agree with some of the comments. If your project concerns building a nuclear plant, you probably need a structural plannable PM model or method. I, working in the IT-industry have seen the use of project organisations changed dramatically over 25 years. All projects are no longer plannable, why I am more concerned in finding other ways of managing projects. The agile project management theory adresses this topic. Also the PaaP concepts, where you more are focusing on the project managers need of solving situations occuring in the project. PaaP and Agile aligns since also many Agile methodologies is built based on Practices.
I am currently involved in a Swedish initiative for agile contracting. I know the also the IEEE have had a work group regarding Recommended Practice for the Customer-Supplier Relationship in Agile Software Development. What I am a litlte curious about is if not agile PM approaches is used outside the IT-industry? Anyone to comment it?
Regarding the inititial question about the project management standard, I do agree with some of the comments. If your project concerns building a nuclear plant, you probably need a structural plannable PM model or method. I, working in the IT-industry have seen the use of project organisations changed dramatically over 25 years. All projects are no longer plannable, why I am more concerned in finding other ways of managing projects. The agile project management theory adresses this topic. Also the PaaP concepts, where you more are focusing on the project managers need of solving situations occuring in the project. PaaP and Agile aligns since also many Agile methodologies is built based on Practices.
I am currently involved in a Swedish initiative for agile contracting. I know the also the IEEE have had a work group regarding Recommended Practice for the Customer-Supplier Relationship in Agile Software Development. What I am a litlte curious about is if not agile PM approaches is used outside the IT-industry? Anyone to comment it?
David Hudson, FAIM, MAIPM, CPPD • Folks, at the risk of sounding patronising, this was one of the most objective and practical discussions on the topic of ISO21500 I have seen in the last six months. Particularly the comment about it being for most projects most of the time, and the realisation that it may or may not be taken up by various bodies. And as Pat indicates, it is important for a standard to be agnostic with respect to specific methodologies.
Brian Jones M Sc, M App Sc, MBA, Dip HE • In recent months there have been several reports of cost blow outs with mega projects in Australia
David Hudson, FAIM, MAIPM, CPPD • It is an interesting question Brian.
I dont think ISO should be expected to handle all of the aspects of projects on scales such as that of mega mining projects.
Just some of the issues with the engineering approach to projects is
(a) it still fails to recognise a fully functional WBS, certainly not on the same principles as generic WBS,
(b) the scale of the projects are such that organisational investment decisions and project management decisions combine in a tricky pea soup, and
(c) we would be better off recognising that the initiatives are really portfolios or at least programs in their own right and stop the cr@phouse behaviour of planning them using project based methods.
I know some in the mining fraternity will disagree, and there are better practice examples of appropriate methodologies on larger mining projects out there for sure.
I dont think ISO should be expected to handle all of the aspects of projects on scales such as that of mega mining projects.
Just some of the issues with the engineering approach to projects is
(a) it still fails to recognise a fully functional WBS, certainly not on the same principles as generic WBS,
(b) the scale of the projects are such that organisational investment decisions and project management decisions combine in a tricky pea soup, and
(c) we would be better off recognising that the initiatives are really portfolios or at least programs in their own right and stop the cr@phouse behaviour of planning them using project based methods.
I know some in the mining fraternity will disagree, and there are better practice examples of appropriate methodologies on larger mining projects out there for sure.
ISO21500 compared to PMBOK
Analysis of ISO 21500 and Its Comparison with PMBoK® Guide
Written by: Sybena Consulting, Stanislaw Gasik, Ph. D. Warszawa, Poland
Contains:
History of ISO 21500.
Basic concepts.
- Project definition.
- Types of projects.
Project Management Processes.
- Project Management Process Groups.
- Subject Groups.
- Structure of Process Description.
- Integration.
- Stakeholder.
- Scope.
- Resource.
- Time.
- Cost.
- Risk.
- Quality.
- Procurement.
- Communication.
- Summary.
http://www.sybena.pl/iso21500pmbok_ang.htm
Written by: Sybena Consulting, Stanislaw Gasik, Ph. D. Warszawa, Poland
Contains:
History of ISO 21500.
Basic concepts.
- Project definition.
- Types of projects.
Project Management Processes.
- Project Management Process Groups.
- Subject Groups.
- Structure of Process Description.
- Integration.
- Stakeholder.
- Scope.
- Resource.
- Time.
- Cost.
- Risk.
- Quality.
- Procurement.
- Communication.
- Summary.
http://www.sybena.pl/iso21500pmbok_ang.htm
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The weakness of any methodology (PRINCE2 included) is it is only useful if the organisation is structured in the way assumed in the methodology. The major weakness and strength of PRINCE2 is it’s built in assumption the client is a part of the performing organisation (or closely allied to the performing organisation). This is true of government departments commissioning projects that are being managed by the department (the natural ‘home’ of PRINECE2) – it’s not true for a commercial contractor tendering for a project.
The basic hierarchy is:
ISO 21500 sets the overall framework and creates a common ‘language’
National standards expand the framework for local conditions and may provide more guidance (eg, the PMBOK® Guide, BS 6079, Etc)
Methodologies define how the standards are applied effectively in specific situations (eg, PRINCE2).
The implicit assumption behind PMBoK is that projects are something a supplier delivers to a customer. The PRINCE2 assumption is based on the Customer/Supplier model: a project is driven by a customer.
This is why my view is that the PMBoK theory is more useful on the PRINCE2 Team Manager's level, process MP, less useful on the PRINCE2 PM level. If my view on this ISO standard is correct, it will be most useful on the TM/MP level as well.
PRINCE2 in The Netherlands is on a low level with most practitioners dismissing the principles because they do not fit into their IT suplliers background...