vrijdag 26 oktober 2012
donderdag 25 oktober 2012
Thoughts on ISO 21500 - LinkedIn
This is a discussion on the LinkedIn group ISO 21500
It was started on october 6th 2012.
I heard about ISO 21500 on the PMI BeLux day
today. As a PMP, why should I care about ISO 21500 at all ? It looks
like a copy of the PMBoK to me anyway.
Thierry Labriet, PMP & IPMA-B •
Hi!
You can find a pretty detailed comparaison between both standards.
In few words: They are very close since they speak about PM and are process oriented.
Now, the PMBOK is quite a comprehensive framework whereas the ISO standard is not as detailed. ISO introduces a new domain: Stakeholder which is very interesting.
Here is the link with the comparaison:
www.sts.ch/documents/english/Doc_7037E_Comparing_PMBOK_and_ISO_v1-1.pdf
Enjoy!
Thierry.
You can find a pretty detailed comparaison between both standards.
In few words: They are very close since they speak about PM and are process oriented.
Now, the PMBOK is quite a comprehensive framework whereas the ISO standard is not as detailed. ISO introduces a new domain: Stakeholder which is very interesting.
Here is the link with the comparaison:
www.sts.ch/documents/english/Doc_7037E_Comparing_PMBOK_and_ISO_v1-1.pdf
Enjoy!
Thierry.
Pedro Dubié Orienti •
Hi Guy. I could suggest you to go to "SEARCH" and
search in the list of "debates" under word "21500". Your opinion That
Affirmative ISO 21500 is a copy of PMBOK have many debates and you could
enjoy very interesting opinions.
In my opinion this topic is sterile Because it is a wrong way to simplify the Importance of ISO 21500 and is an obstacle to discussion new complex issues.
If we affirm That ISO 21500 and PMBOK are similarly info we have the risk to affirm That nothing new happened and this is are a big mistake. In the other hand, it'sa good opportunity to Recognize the historic contribution PMI and IPMA That (and others) Have Done to our PM culture. In the construction industry we Recognize other importants and very usefull standars (CMAA, CIOB, PRINCE II, Lean Construction, AEEBC Association of European Building Surveyors & Construction Experts, etc).
Now, We have the important advantage to have an ISO Common Language! The world is not built only ... what are the next steps?
In my opinion this topic is sterile Because it is a wrong way to simplify the Importance of ISO 21500 and is an obstacle to discussion new complex issues.
If we affirm That ISO 21500 and PMBOK are similarly info we have the risk to affirm That nothing new happened and this is are a big mistake. In the other hand, it'sa good opportunity to Recognize the historic contribution PMI and IPMA That (and others) Have Done to our PM culture. In the construction industry we Recognize other importants and very usefull standars (CMAA, CIOB, PRINCE II, Lean Construction, AEEBC Association of European Building Surveyors & Construction Experts, etc).
Now, We have the important advantage to have an ISO Common Language! The world is not built only ... what are the next steps?
Thierry Labriet, PMP & IPMA-B •
Hello,
Many other debates have touched this topic indeed.
Now, I'm interested to learn why you consider ISO 21500 is not similar to PMBOK?
I have read both and they present many common processes. From this point of view, they are very close.
Regarding their respective influence, here I agree with you: They both address different interests and are considered by different people.
Thierry.,
Many other debates have touched this topic indeed.
Now, I'm interested to learn why you consider ISO 21500 is not similar to PMBOK?
I have read both and they present many common processes. From this point of view, they are very close.
Regarding their respective influence, here I agree with you: They both address different interests and are considered by different people.
Thierry.,
Pedro Dubié Orienti •
Hi Thierry. I do not like to affirm that ISO
21500 is similar to PMBOK because if we study and compare the origin of a
group of essential concepts of Project Management in different
countries, ages and sectors we can see that the concepts have developed
from differents industries and experiencies with a convergent movement
during the last decades. PMBOK is one, but not the unique result of
interdisciplinary voluntary work worldwide since 1987. Before 1987, many
people knew and practice similar know how.
Santiago Penabella •
The point is not if ISO 21500 is or isn't a copy
of PMBOK, but what's it's objective. In many countries PM is not
considered a discipline or at least PMBOK has no importance at all (even
for companies that theorically develops project management activities).
In my opinion what is good about ISO 21500 is that offers a good
oportunity to spread the PM methodologies, and even better if the
methodology is that one from PMBOK. The trademark ISO is a great support
for this intention, so maybe those who don't care or don't know about
PMBOK/PMI will pay attention to any standar coming from ISO.
ISO 21500 is of course inspired (or copied) in PMBOK, but PMBOK is going to be modified to be aligned with ISO 21500 so it's not only copy but a whole work of joining different methodologies and a way to find a common standard.
ISO 21500 is of course inspired (or copied) in PMBOK, but PMBOK is going to be modified to be aligned with ISO 21500 so it's not only copy but a whole work of joining different methodologies and a way to find a common standard.
Thierry Labriet, PMP & IPMA-B •
Hi,
I fully agree with the great visibility ISO will give to PM worldwide. ISO is a reference for many decision makers who were difficult to convince with PMI references...
I have absolutely no doubt about it, and I agree, it is a major difference here.
Now there are two common points between ISO and PMI.
First, they are global standards: The PMBOK is the ANSI standard (American National Standard Institute) and many contributors work hard to enhance this standard. ISO, at a greater scale (worldwide vs American), is working somehow the same way, except that members are international.
Last, the processes described in both standards are very close and will become even closer with the new version of the PMBOK. Somehow, it is normal that ANSI and ISO standards have commonalities when dealing with the same subject.
Thierry.
I fully agree with the great visibility ISO will give to PM worldwide. ISO is a reference for many decision makers who were difficult to convince with PMI references...
I have absolutely no doubt about it, and I agree, it is a major difference here.
Now there are two common points between ISO and PMI.
First, they are global standards: The PMBOK is the ANSI standard (American National Standard Institute) and many contributors work hard to enhance this standard. ISO, at a greater scale (worldwide vs American), is working somehow the same way, except that members are international.
Last, the processes described in both standards are very close and will become even closer with the new version of the PMBOK. Somehow, it is normal that ANSI and ISO standards have commonalities when dealing with the same subject.
Thierry.
Max Wideman •
The big difference between the Guide to the PMBOK
and the ISO21500 Guidance on project management is that the "Guide" is
excessively complex for most projects but relatively cheap whereas the
ISO21500 is quite simplistic but excessively expensive. Since both are
treating the same subject, it should not be surprising that there are
commonalities to both.
Guy Vertommen •
hi all,
So, as a project manager, what is then the next step to do ? I studied the
PMBoK and reached a PMP certification not only to become a better project
manager, but also to be recognised as one. And with that statement I mean
that identifying yourself as PMP on your resume gives yourself a sort of
quality label, a label that is often requested when looking for
opportunities.
What's with ISO then ? Should PMP's look for an ISO label (appreciation,
certification, ...) as well ? Is that even the goal ?
Will, in the long run, the ISO 21500 stamp in the upper right corner of our
resume replace the list of PMP, Prince2, IPMA certifications ?
regards
Guy
So, as a project manager, what is then the next step to do ? I studied the
PMBoK and reached a PMP certification not only to become a better project
manager, but also to be recognised as one. And with that statement I mean
that identifying yourself as PMP on your resume gives yourself a sort of
quality label, a label that is often requested when looking for
opportunities.
What's with ISO then ? Should PMP's look for an ISO label (appreciation,
certification, ...) as well ? Is that even the goal ?
Will, in the long run, the ISO 21500 stamp in the upper right corner of our
resume replace the list of PMP, Prince2, IPMA certifications ?
regards
Guy
Guy Vertommen •
Well, I think we should celebrate that there finally is an ISO standard for
project managerment.
And the fact that it is very very similar to our beloved PMBoK makes it all
the easier for PMP's to study it :-)
regards
Guy
project managerment.
And the fact that it is very very similar to our beloved PMBoK makes it all
the easier for PMP's to study it :-)
regards
Guy
Santiago Penabella •
In my case Guy, I obtained the PMP certification
with the same objective as you did, improve my skills as PM and also to
be recognised as such, but unfortunatly in my country and in my
industry it's not a recognition. Anyway, ISO will not be used to certify
professionals but projects.
What is good for us, the professionals, is that ISO will help those organizations that still don't know clearly what Project Management is and how they can improve their results using PM methodologies.
And of course for those professionals who know and use the PMBOK standards is great that the ISO 21500 is aligned with it, we don't need to learn something new!!!
What is good for us, the professionals, is that ISO will help those organizations that still don't know clearly what Project Management is and how they can improve their results using PM methodologies.
And of course for those professionals who know and use the PMBOK standards is great that the ISO 21500 is aligned with it, we don't need to learn something new!!!
Thierry Labriet, PMP & IPMA-B •
Hi,
ISO will never appear on your resume because it is oriented towards organization.
What may happen is that ISO oriented organizations will appreciate someone with a PMP certification because 1) you have a structured approach of PM, 2) you know a process oriented framework which is the ANSI standard and 3) this ANSI standard is very close to the ISO standard.
That's why, I think PMI certifications will continue to provide value to individuals like us.
It might be more difficult for Prince2 because it is a bit less close to the ISO processes and, in Switzerland, our federal adopted method (Hermès) might also be in this situation.
I believe that IPMA, because it is competency oriented, will continue to have an increasing recognition.
What do you think?
ISO will never appear on your resume because it is oriented towards organization.
What may happen is that ISO oriented organizations will appreciate someone with a PMP certification because 1) you have a structured approach of PM, 2) you know a process oriented framework which is the ANSI standard and 3) this ANSI standard is very close to the ISO standard.
That's why, I think PMI certifications will continue to provide value to individuals like us.
It might be more difficult for Prince2 because it is a bit less close to the ISO processes and, in Switzerland, our federal adopted method (Hermès) might also be in this situation.
I believe that IPMA, because it is competency oriented, will continue to have an increasing recognition.
What do you think?
Guy Vertommen •
I don't know IPMA very well .. I just became
member of the new Belgian chapter and I haven't really studied their
certification system yet.
Manuel Romoli •
The ISO21500 standard is a company-oriented
methodology and will give companies a new framework to wich certify
their projects against: sponsors/CEO/senior management they do not know
the PMI label but they certainly know the ISO label and hope is to
certify their organizations like the ISO 9001 standard. PMPs will act as
consultants.
Angus Macleod MAPM IPMA •
In my humble view the difference has ENORMOUS
contractual nessecity - if you are a PMC, PMT or ans EPC and your
contarct with a Major Client DEPENDS on you being ISO 21500 certified
then it will be NESSECARY as it is an overarching INTERNATIONAL
STANDARD - as opposed to much more detaled BoK's which tend to be
"national" rather than "international" and I would say PMBoKs are not
recognised in International Contract Law (?) - a they (PMBoK''s) are
country-specific PMI (USA), APM (UK) AIPM (AUS), IPMA (International) -
having no specific weight in contract law.
I would opine that ISO' s are just what it says - if you are not (say) ISO 9100 / 9002 compliant then you get eliminated from ITTs (Invitations to Tender) - the same will eventually be true of ISO 21500 as it permeates the International PM Community.
In the Oil & Gas industry (ie) Major Oil Companies classically award PMT's / PMC's for greenfield capital projects with CAPEX ranging from $1BN - > 45BN USD with PMC contracs being worth 5-9% (maybe more) of these Capex values - they would definately not award a PMC with no ISO compliance for that order of magnitude contract - the cost risk in terms of sub-optimal management would be too great.
Just a few thoughts
I would opine that ISO' s are just what it says - if you are not (say) ISO 9100 / 9002 compliant then you get eliminated from ITTs (Invitations to Tender) - the same will eventually be true of ISO 21500 as it permeates the International PM Community.
In the Oil & Gas industry (ie) Major Oil Companies classically award PMT's / PMC's for greenfield capital projects with CAPEX ranging from $1BN - > 45BN USD with PMC contracs being worth 5-9% (maybe more) of these Capex values - they would definately not award a PMC with no ISO compliance for that order of magnitude contract - the cost risk in terms of sub-optimal management would be too great.
Just a few thoughts
Pat Weaver •
Thoughts on the last 2 comments:
1. ISO21500 - IS NOT a methodology and has no resemblance to a methodology, it is a standard. Organisations can build a methodology based on a standard but this involves a lot of work. To understand the elementary differences between standards and methodologies see: http://mosaicprojects.wordpress.com/2009/04/11/pmbok-v-methodology/ and for more on developing a methodology see: http://www.mosaicprojects.com.au/WhitePapers/WP1045_Methodologies.pdf
1. ISO21500 – was not designed to facilitate certification or accreditation although I’m sure someone will try for commercial reasons the process definition is very high level and certifying that someone has for example ‘developed a schedule’ is next to useless. A valid certification should look at the quality and use of the schedule not the simple fact a piece of paper called a schedule exists which is all ISO21500 will support. There are valid assessment models available like P3M3 and OPM3 – organisations asking for certification under ISO 21500 are simply showing there ignorance of effective project management. For more on these models see: http://www.mosaicprojects.com.au/PM-Knowledge_Index.html#OrgGov5
ISO 21500 has been designed to provide an overarching framework to facilitate the alignment of national standards and terminology world-wide. It achieves this objective and should allow a standardisation of the practice of project management over time.
1. ISO21500 - IS NOT a methodology and has no resemblance to a methodology, it is a standard. Organisations can build a methodology based on a standard but this involves a lot of work. To understand the elementary differences between standards and methodologies see: http://mosaicprojects.wordpress.com/2009/04/11/pmbok-v-methodology/ and for more on developing a methodology see: http://www.mosaicprojects.com.au/WhitePapers/WP1045_Methodologies.pdf
1. ISO21500 – was not designed to facilitate certification or accreditation although I’m sure someone will try for commercial reasons the process definition is very high level and certifying that someone has for example ‘developed a schedule’ is next to useless. A valid certification should look at the quality and use of the schedule not the simple fact a piece of paper called a schedule exists which is all ISO21500 will support. There are valid assessment models available like P3M3 and OPM3 – organisations asking for certification under ISO 21500 are simply showing there ignorance of effective project management. For more on these models see: http://www.mosaicprojects.com.au/PM-Knowledge_Index.html#OrgGov5
ISO 21500 has been designed to provide an overarching framework to facilitate the alignment of national standards and terminology world-wide. It achieves this objective and should allow a standardisation of the practice of project management over time.
Thierry Labriet, PMP & IPMA-B •
Hi,
In addition, I would react to Angus comment regarding IPMA. IPMA is not an international methodology since it is not a methodology at all.
It is a competency based appreciation (and certification) framework, and this is actually what makes it appealing and complementary to a specific methodology or process oriented framework.
Thierry.
In addition, I would react to Angus comment regarding IPMA. IPMA is not an international methodology since it is not a methodology at all.
It is a competency based appreciation (and certification) framework, and this is actually what makes it appealing and complementary to a specific methodology or process oriented framework.
Thierry.
woensdag 24 oktober 2012
dinsdag 23 oktober 2012
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Maybe you will have a closer look and sure you will recognize the differences between PMBoK and ISO 21500 especially looking at it´s chapter 3.
Among other PM-concepts you will find the concept of PM-personell competencies according to ipma which means the ipma certification system is in line with ISO 21500.
This is just one example.